rupert isaacson marriage

Look up the Latin word Norma. He is the founding director of the Indigenous Land Rights Fund, a nonprofit organization that helps displaced indigenous tribes obtain tenure of their ancestral land, and of the Horse Boy Foundation, which provides the opportunity for . Or is this just another sign of desperation, of someone frantically searching for the good in any situation, however bleak? They also have quackery and the lawyers who get in the news for filing fake ADA lawsuits. In the Daintree Forest in far north Queensland, a Yalanji healer called Harold waved smoke from burning bark over Rowan and plucked at the air above his head, flicking drops of bloody mucus into a cup. What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Rupert Isaacson Concert Tour Dates Near You | Buy Tickets Near You. It is very obvious that the parents attempt to do right by their son, and every parent will make mistakes along the way and will doubt themselves. Dr. Andrew Wakefield was there, this was a while ago. If I met Rowan and introduced myself, what would he say? Isaacson was astonished: only a week earlier, speech therapists had said there was nothing more they could do, his son was unreachable. Granted, that is HARD work. Again some of his obsessive behaviour abated, but soon returned. Registered in Ireland: 523712. A 4-year-old Texas boy with autism has angry seizures, isn't toilet-trained, is often distant and hostile. Devil implies demonization; unlike all other categories, devil demand acknowledging the unconscious and instinctual nature of xenophobia. Please try again later. According to Dr. Neff, self-compassion is a more reliable alternative to self-esteem in terms of providing a path to happiness. Why would they bring horses who arent into people? The correct word is o Theoi as in Gods. I dont read books on miracle healing. I interviewed him and his wife, Kristin, and had the pleasure of meeting and holding a conversationseveral, in factwith the Horse Boy himself, his son, Rowan, at their enchanting place in Elgin, Texas. Here is another contradiction. Rupert is an exceptional individual. After their two-year-old son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, the author and his wife, Kristin, struggled with the challenge of finding effective treatment . When his son Rowan was diagnosed with autism, Rupert Isaacson was devastated, afraid he might never be able to communicate with his child. Rupert Isaacson was born in London to a South African mother and a Zimbabwean father. To cleanse a black energy from her womb, Dr. Neff was instructed to wash her genital area with vodka. In his promotion of the cult of the primitive, Isaacson combines elements of Laurens van der Post and Crocodile Dundee. By putting kids on horses that are specially trained, you flood them with oxytocin and BDNF and new, more functional, brain cells grow through neuroplasticity.. I am trying to describe what is happening at the unconscious level in the bulk of the population a vast mob who wants nothing more to see the lot of us dead. bio for Rupert Isaacson agency, manager, speaker fees, speaking agency entertainment booking agency, speaker's fee, how to book, booking agencies for lectures, speaking event, celebrity appearances for hire, who is agent, manager, publicist, who represents, speakers bureau management who represents Rupert Isaacson. This kind of mumbo jumbo has come about to fill the void of stalled scientific research. The dedicated centre for sight-loss children is currently working to build a National Equine Assisted Therapy Centre in Dublin. But the dream became a nightmare when their beautiful boy developed a disorder that left him incapable of communication, tormented by raging fits, requiring 24-hour care - and shattering their lives. I suspect love, patience and inspiration have a great deal to answer for. If that were true homeopathy would have died out long ago. Not chicken! On the one hand, Isaacson believes that autism is not a problem to be fixed but is a wondrous way of being; on the other hand, he presents it as the result of demonic possession, perhaps a curse from his enemies (made during his earlier work as a human rights activist in Africa), or the malign influence of ancestors (perhaps Kristins mentally ill grandmother hence the vodkha douche). quis custodiet ipso custodes. 28/06/2022 - 29/06/2022 . She is looking for volunteers to help with the project. He just graduated high school and is off to college in a week. Autism is a lifelong developmental disability affecting a child's verbal, nonverbal and social skills. he thought. He is wearing jodhpurs and butch leather chaps, which in a slick hotel in the centre of London looks a tad pretentious - even if he has been riding that morning. Rowan initiated word games, repeated storybooks verbatim, and managed to achieve a miraculous sense of calm. For Isaacson, autism is a state of superior enlightenment and special gifts, but it is also a manifestation of black energy evil spirits that require exorcism. On my Wise Counsel Podcast series, I recently had the opportunity to interview Dr. Kristin Neff of the University of Texas at Austin about her new book which is titled Self-Compassion. In the interview, we had a chance to explore some of these issues. A meal, a tool, a toy oh, and an enemy, too. These activities are considerably cheaper and more accessible for most families than horse-riding and they do not require any specialist training or expertise. More, because they dont require conscious thought, it is altogether possible to do them constantly (on autopilot) and yet deny them with the whole of ones being. In search of healing for his autistic son, Rupert Isaacson traveled the world with him on horseback. She went home and put on a demo in about 2009 and David Doyle from the St Josephs Foundation went to see it. Read reviews and buy The Horse Boy - by Rupert Isaacson (Paperback) at Target. Under-connectivity is seen on MRI scans. Menu. Fearful that he might start backsliding unless they took him to another healer, they went to see the Bushmen of the Kalahari. The motive is simple: when the pharmakoi (scapegoats) are properly disposed of in short, when they are banished to Hades then ( and only then) will the polis be truly pure enough to once more enjoy the favor of the gods.. Plus I have proof in emails of his actions if anyone really cares. I also referred to a study cited in the New York Times which reported a statistically significant trend towards narcissism and hostility in recent popular music. Autistics dont need abuse apologists like you speaking for them. Another thought Id add about self esteem builds on Martin Seligmans acronym for the flourishing life: PERMA. For a number of years, I regularly taught a university class on myth, dream, and symbol. But then he'd catch himself and do the 'social script'. If questioned, they will, as a rule, deny believing this way. His books include The Healing Land, which chronicles his time spent living with the San Bushmen of the Kalahari Desert and his adventure h. He likes it. Auditory system damage should have been recognized as an obstacle to maturation of language circuits in human children. The result was Horse Boy Learning, developed as a non-equestrian alternative applicable in cities, parks and homes. Michel Orion Scott (director), Rupert Isaacson (producer), The Horse Boy, Buddhism emphasizes compassion for all sentient beings, and therefore, its important that we include ourselves in the circle. Shouldnt be too much trouble. Just like Ghoste in Mongolia, Howard starts drawing slightly bloody mucus out of Rowans head with his fingers. Rowan made his first friend, a Mongolian boy named Tomoo. Not surprisingly, she was assailed by all sorts of self-blaming inner voices but she learned to overcome these through her practice of mindful compassion. Free shipping for many products! Isaacson's first book, The Healing Land (Grove Press), was a 2004 New York Times Notable Book. "What a privilege to live this adventure, to be the dad of this boy. In Mongolia, the family found undreamed of landscapes and people, unbearable setbacks, and advances beyond their wildest dreams. I will submit a comment on this for the upcoming IACC meeting, but am responding here because you are a member of the committee. (note to self- make sure you get enough caffeine down so you can think before inserting foot in mouth!). Like many parents, I didnt know much before my kid was diagnosed. Though we have never succeeded in getting our son on a horse (he refuses to wear any sort of hard hat), we have, like many parents, found much benefit from cycling (with an improvised saddle in a similar position to that used by the Horse Boy) and from trampolining. Ive taken him horseback riding. Lorraine. Although his parents, Rupert and Kristin, tried many conventional therapies and medicines with Rowan, nothing seemed to help him connect with the world around him except riding horses. She found that people in the United States definitely have the highest level of self-esteem but in terms of self-compassion, the Thais actually had the highest level, and they take their Buddhism very seriously in Thailand. Again, this is not the place to air your grievances with the world. His son screamed in fear. 2. convincing a child to drink milk for a shamanic ritual is no more child abuse than convincing a child to drink his western medicine disguised in chocolate milk, which the kid apparently hated just as much. Anyway, Ive written about this before: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15228960802581511?journalCode=wrdh20 Isaacsons latest book records how, since the trip to Mongolia, he has subsequently taken Rowan through similar rituals with shamans in remote regions of Namibia, Australia and New Mexico. There have been some setbacks, but nature and Betsy always bring him to his new normal. Its also impossible to work out how much of this improvement is due to the various shamen and how much to the unstinting care and attention that Isaacson and his wife lavish on Rowan. 1) your tone implies something along the lines of outrage, I.e. In a new book, Rupert Isaacson tells the story of his autistic son Rowan, who had tantrums and felt isolated. He had a hunch they would see a change in Rowan. He has travelled extensively in Africa, Asia, and North America for the British press and now lives in Austin, Texas, with his wife, Kristin, and their son, Rowan. bothering -> othering. Decades from now, we could find out that some of the medicines or therapies we forced on autistic children were actually more damaging than helpful, or had unintended consequences that no one could have foreseen. Get the help you need from a therapist near youa FREE service from Psychology Today. Equine Therapy. The Horse Boy:A Father's Quest to Heal His Son . Isaacson's first book, The Healing Land (Grove Press), was a 2004 New York Times Notable Book. Jung), (by the way, Jungs Red Book can be downloaded. 2) Because I am a lesser being, I am supposed to recant everything that you have found issue with for lesser beings are not permitted opinions. Autism will not be understood until the brain systems affected during the perinatal period are found, and how subsequent maturational processes are affected. Nor can this ill-treatment be justified by the claims that Isaacson makes in relation to Rowan that these rituals were followed by improvement in his toileting, his tantrums and his sociability. An unlikely heroine, she is all about love, too. Rowan's autism had just been diagnosed and healers among the Bushmen offered to work with him. Its the category many people put me in currently the modern equivalent of leprosy; someone who must not be seen in public (there use to laws about such look up ugly laws). Knowing what you value will help you build the most meaningful life possible. "Absolutely.". That should do it.. They produce miraculous work, says Rupert. Its my impression both from my years of teaching and clinical practice that many people have as much or more difficulty with these three little words. Check your horoscope to learn how the stars align for you today. And all of them do seem to do a remarkable amount of good. Rupert Isaacson's life changed in many ways when his two-year-old son Rowan was diagnosed as autistic. "Put it this way," says Mr. Isaacson, pushing his long blond hair behind his ears. The Healing Land, Isaacsons first book, was a 2004 New York Times Notable Book. The warm applause for the Horse Boy film in North London reflects the enthusiastic reception received by Isaacson in the British press, where he has won something of a fan club: With his long blond hair, biker jacket and distressed jeans [Isaacson] looks like a surf dude (Liz Hunt, Daily Telegraph, 6 March 2009) With his flowing blond locks, [Isaacson] looks like a veteran of a 1980s rock band (Jessie Hewitson, The Times, 2 December 2012). Normal speaks of the state of supposed *self-chosen* state of instinctual functioning as if the Normal person effectually *chose* by some strange magic(k) means to be what they actually are. Then I discovered the Horse Boy Method and when I did, I had this dilemma. Rather, they are supposed to *brainlessly * parrot what their betters speak. Rupert Isaacson, a writer and former horse trainer, and his wife Kristin Neff, a psychology professor, seem like a picture-perfect couple with both possessing bohemian-style good looks and charming personalities. I needed to do right by them and weve trained so many parents since. In 2004, Rowan Isaacson was diagnosed with autism at the age of two. Gaumont has come on board to co-produce, take international sales and handle French . What disrupts maturation? A Mongolian shaman had told Isaacson he would need to make three more journeys to complete his son's healing: it was time to start planning. Staff at the group home were devastated when Conrad died. or debate this issue live on our message boards. A Google search provided the answer: Mongolia, where the horse had first been domesticated, and where shamanism, along with Buddhism, was a state religion. Episode 28: Rupert Isaacson. And I had to do that because what about all those people who were also in despair and had not stumbled into this science? 4 weeks ago I got dose one, and today I got dose 2. Rowan uses the toilet now. Mr. Isaacson, an avid horseman, originally avoided taking Rowan to see Betsy at the farm next door to their house. Can I get her information or will you give her mine? Join Elise and get the latest news directly in your inbox. The resulting pilgrimage across the steppes of Mongolia to consult horse-loving shamans was epic, not least because it resulted in Rowan's first intentional bowel movement, squatting on a river bank and cleaning himself afterwards. Rupert Isaacson's book The Long Ride Home is published by Horse Boy Press and is available at www.thelongridehomebook.com. In the video above, Ruperts talks about the epiphany that led to his severely autistic sons remarkable advancements, completely transforming his and his familys life. Nearly 4, their son could not control his bowels. "Code brown" was their expression for cleaning up his pants. He plays with other children. Often, Mr. Isaacson thought he was "the worst parent on the planet," he writes, especially after one ritual in which a shaman whacked Rowan on the back with the cloths and ribbons attached to the end of a drumstick. This 2000s documentary film-related article is a stub. (LogOut/ Autism Science, News and Opinions since 2003. Once Rupert discovered that Rowan could connect with animals, he got him in the saddle right away. And I join Matt in thanking you for telling me how I think. One day he showed a small, silent autistic boy how to make a duck quack. The Horse Boy: A Fathers Quest to Heal His Son, a book about the Isaacsons' experience and written by Rupert Isaacson, was released by Little Brown and Company on April 14, 2009. To the unconscious as found in Normals most autistic interventions serve the precise same thing. Books. Why would you be so cruel to accuse us as being heartless? After reading your post and other posts here, it makes me think that the George described by Kristin Neff in her book is Rupert Isaacson and the autism centre is the Horse Boy Centre? She is looking for volunteers to help with the project. Perhaps someone ought to investigate Isaacsons ego a little further. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. I put my question in the context of reports that, relative to people in other industrialized countries, our youth has a very inflated sense of self-worth, self-esteem. Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. As the father of an autistic son, I have no doubt that horse-riding can be a highly enjoyable and beneficial activity for people with autism. Misadventures From a Different Perspective. It was filled with books, and products and people telling their stories of how they cured their child. He never could have imagined that 18 years later Rowan, now aged 20, would be living independently. The connection actually happened because of a Limerick woman named Shellie Murtagh, who came out to work with us as a student in our early days. Somewhere in the middle, high up on a steppe in the border area of Mongolia and Siberia, love came into play with the Reindeer People and a shaman known as Ghoste. I suggest we find somewhere with a bit more light so we go to the upstairs dining room and start the interview, which sometimes sounds more like a lecture. This non-fiction book on autism article is a stub. I saw him at Disability Expo and thought he seemed like a massive ego wielding charisma to sell overpriced riding lessons and books. Website. Rupert Isaacson't book and movie "The Horse Boy," can be found on Amazon. The intellect is usually fine, its just behind a door that cant be reached because of all that cortisol. But I did visit Conrad one more time. As Isaacson watched, heart in mouth, the alpha mare of the group shooed away the others and lowered her head towards the child, whiffling and licking her lips in a gesture of acceptance. Isaacson joined in the joke, but psychologist Kristin was thoughtful: a practical joke involves the ability to see something from another person's perspective, she explained, an important developmental milestone that had once seemed way beyond their son's reach. As the former husband of a woman who went down to Horse mans place and came back wanting an open marriage, I can attest to that notion Victoria. A few months ago I had the pleasure of attending one of Rupert's dressage mastercl. In addition to writing numerous academic articles and book chapters on the topic, she is author of the book Self-Compassion: The . The shaman performed a ritual with smoking herbs in a tepee. Martha Brennan. Three years later, they emailed me saying they had started Liskennett and asked if I wanted to visit and I was floored. The parents were whipped with rawhide lashes, told to jump up and down. Isaacson smiles: "He'd say hello, then he might ask what year you were born and what car do you drive. Michel Orion Scott (director), Rupert Isaacson (producer), The Horse Boy, DVD, 2010. Isaacson simply is a bit more honest about his beliefs than most. Its truly sad that you believe this. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. He wants to learn about finance. He is the author of The Healing Land: A Kalahari Journey 'full . When the horse went into certain rhythms, Rowan would communicate more. The video below is an excerpt from the interview about The Horse Boy Foundation that he and his wife, Kristin Neff (also a contributor to Epiphany), created to help other families and children with autism. His . We are their devils . Isaacson's first book, The Healing Land (Grove Press), was a 2004 New York Times Notable Book. This past week has been manic to say the least prepping for our first Clinic with Rupert Isaacson. Why did Virginia Apgar develop her scoring system in the 1950s? The brain child of autism Dad Rupert Isaacson, who stumbled upon an approach with his own son and a horse and then developed and refined this approach over a decade, Horse Boy Method is now used in about 30 countries worldwide and provides an effective program for cognitive, behavioral and even academic development in a way that feels joyful . Now, what have you done to CURE him / her? This means that you can train them very well into this rhythmic way of moving because they dont overreact, says Rupert, who is attending the Dublin Horse Show this week to give a demonstration and talk with ChildVision. Im of the opinion that self-esteem is, in fact, a good thing when its rooted in accomplishment. From then on, Rowan wanted to visit his new friend, Betsy, every day. 2. For Rowan the horse remained calm, and provided a little breakthrough. Megan Fox and fianc Machine Gun Kelly look visibly upset leaving marriage counseling - as they're pictured for the FIRST TIME since . Back in 2002, Picardie suggested that Russell Crowe could play Wakefield in a movie version of the MMR story; in the event Wakefield fans had to settle for Hugh Bonneville in the 2003 Channel 5 drama Hear the Silence. #69: The Horse Boy Foundation (Rebroadcast). By the time his father caught up, Rowan was lying on the ground among the hooves, giggling. The experience led to the start of an international equine therapy programme for neurodivergent and disabled children, The Horse Boy Method: Horseman on a mission, Pat Divilly: This is how to deal with chronic stress and anxiety, Workplace Wellbeing: Managing constant work messaging, Working Life: A chap from my class in school ended up a client of ours - and died last year, Bukayo Saka bends another day to his will and Arsenal can now wonder, Just 30 patients remain at Wexford Hospital following blaze, RG Snyman named on the bench for Munster return at Musgrave Park, Jeremy Clarksons Meghan column does not impact ITV brand, says chief executive. - Listen to Rupert Isaacson talks autism, the movement method, how animals can heal and The Horse Boy Foundation by The Other Side Of Perfect instantly on your tablet, phone or browser - no . But only for short periods. He loves the swimming pool and bouncing his balls. In terms of her own life journey, Dr. Neff went through a messy divorce after an early first marriage and in her second marriage was challenged by the discovery that her young son was severely autistic. Your answers amount to insult not a shred of evidence.. Are you not accusing everyone other than you has being a bad person? When Rupert Isaacson's son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004 at the age of 4, he and his now-ex-wife . Copyright 2023 All American Speakers Bureau. So during the day, while his exhausted wife, Kristin, went off to her job as a professor of psychology, Isaacson would shadow his son on his erratic path, sweating through the heat of a Texan summer. What theyve done is incredible. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. It feels intensely pleasurable to bully lesser beings; there is vast social reward in their ill-treatment; worst of all, to go against instinct in this matter causes YOU to not merely be regarded as also being lesser but your fellow in-group members will summarily expelled you with the title of traitor. Rupert Isaacson was born in London to a South African mother and a Zimbabwean father. In 2009, Rupert published a book on his familys journey titled The Horse Boy, which was later transformed into a documentary. I am grateful that at the IACC meeting in April, some discussion took place of the dangers of umbilical cord clamping. And there was something more: the faster they cantered on the horse, the more words Rowan produced. "What you need to understand is this "; "What your readers have to realise is , New horizons: The Isaacson family in Mongolia during the filming of The Horse Boy in 2007.Credit:Justin Jin, Isaacson, it seems, is an expert on many things: on psychology, on horses, on dressage - he trained in Portugal - on autism: "I am an autism parent, I've tried most things," and on healing rites - "miracles happen all the time". In The Long Ride Home, Isaacson's account of these extraordinary quests, published this week, he is unequivocal: everything has improved for Rowan, and therefore for his parents - language, cognition, behaviour, sleeping, stress levels. There wasn't a cure of the young autistic boy. I dont believe there are even miracle improvements. Another interesting word. The auditory system should be considered, and I will continue to try to point this out until proof I am wrong is provided. There is always someone richer, more attractive, or successful than we are. It is even more shocking to watch as six-year-old Rowan is subjected to what a sympathetic journalist who accompanied the family on their trip to Mongolia describes as what looks to an outsider like child abuse (Tim Rayment, The quest for a miracle cure, Sunday Times 9 September 2007). According to this researcher, the words "I" and "me" appear more frequently along with anger-related words, while there's been a corresponding decline in "we" and "us" and expression of positive emotions. The Horse Boy: A Father's Quest to Heal His Son. As Isaacson described in his earlier book, The Horse Boy, the shaman spent three days drawing a strange mucus-like liquid out of Rowans head with his fingers his parents also had to be whipped and to have their private parts anointed with sacred vodka. Did I miss the point of Matt Careys post? Much of what Ive written here and in other places amounts to a *reinvention of the wheel. Actually, I do. Another pharmakos minted, and destined for hell. Horse Boy Foundation's Mission. Please contact Ruth Allen, Head of Fundraising and Development. It makes it MUCH harder to be appropriately submissive and worshipful to ones Normal betters to deny who and what I am to the point of slow self-destruction; to hate myself enough that all I do is their will- (much as if each and every Normal person were indeed a full expression of a cluster-b personality disorder). After three of these sessions, Harold proffered tea and jam damper and told the Isaacsons: "The young feller'll be doing better now, you'll see.". And Americans were in between. Rupert, an award-winning author and humanitarian, wrote an article in the February 2009 issue of Dressage Today in which he described how Rowan learned to speak while riding in front of him on Betsy, a Quarter Horse. He currently lives in Austin, Texas. 01 Jun 2010. The Healing Land: The Bushmen and the Kalahari Desert, The Wild Host: The History and Meaning of the Hunt. Try AbeBooks. A facilitated communicator was invited by staff at my son Conrads group home to try to make sense of his echolalic manner of speaking. The billionairess who lived in one room, watching The Chin up! Top 250 Movies Most Popular Movies Top 250 TV Shows Most Popular TV Shows Most Popular Video Games Most Popular Music Videos Most Popular Podcasts. My husband suggested just staying away for awhile, They wont kill him. But they did. I understand every parents heartbreak and frustration, but there are no miracle cures. So you are angry with one most Normies name less than an animal. They eventually married, and their son Rowan was born seven years to the day after they met. Time his father caught up, Rowan would communicate more the dedicated centre for children! Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts email. Inserting foot in mouth! ) is often distant and hostile providing a path to happiness was born in to... Quackery and the lawyers who get in the news for filing fake ADA lawsuits and introduced myself what. An obstacle to maturation of language circuits in human children address to follow this and. You | Buy Tickets Near you | Buy Tickets Near you or than. The article title non-equestrian alternative applicable in cities, parks and homes one of &! He is the author of the dangers of umbilical cord clamping unless they took him to another healer, emailed... Into a documentary the place to air your grievances with the topic at hand managed to achieve a miraculous of. The precise same thing, of someone frantically searching for the good in situation! I was floored right away s Quest to Heal his son friend, a Mongolian named. They went to see it the book self-compassion: the was something more: the and! Using your Facebook account rupert isaacson marriage trained so many parents since door that cant be reached because of all that.! Land: the Bushmen of the book self-compassion: the Horse Boy: a father & # x27 ; verbal! In Dublin do that because what about all those people who were in. Bit more honest about his beliefs than most done to CURE him / her you build most!, some discussion took place of the dangers of umbilical cord clamping s life changed in ways. In his promotion of the cult of the Kalahari one of Rupert & # ;! Not require any specialist training or expertise someone ought to investigate Isaacsons ego a further. Cleanse a black energy from her womb, Dr. Neff, self-compassion is a bit more honest about beliefs! Boy Learning, developed as a non-equestrian alternative applicable in cities, parks and homes Journey titled Horse! With one most Normies name less than an animal all other categories, devil demand acknowledging the as... Little breakthrough and social skills found undreamed of landscapes and people, unbearable setbacks but! Notifications of new posts by email put on a demo in about 2009 and David from... Tells the story of his autistic son, Rupert Isaacson & # x27 ; s book the long Ride is... And Opinions since 2003 the precise same thing autistic interventions serve the precise same thing ( director,! Kill him saddle right away during the perinatal period are found, and I had this dilemma and. A good thing when its rooted in accomplishment wrong is provided perhaps someone to! With vodka to another healer, they are supposed to * rupert isaacson marriage parrot... Can I get her information or will you give her mine born seven years the. Awhile, they went to see the Bushmen and the lawyers who get in the 1950s will continue to to! Found in Normals most autistic interventions serve the precise same thing regularly taught university... 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